We've come to the end of our celebration of the late Josie and Dan DeCarlo (and what a better way than with the above 1940s piece by Dan; an elaborately-drawn envelope for, no doubt, another love letter to Josie). She will live on in memories and in Dan's artwork, immortalized as the Josie in Dan's creation, "Josie & The Pussycats". Here's Part 1 and here's Part 2. Part 3 finished off the original interview, done for their chapter in my first book, I Have To Live With This Guy!, published by Twomorrows in August 2002, and adds the follow-up questions at the end. RIP Josie...
Josie DeCarlo P3
taped March 17th, 2002, by phone from New York for
“I Have To Live With This Guy!”
BB: Stop me if I'm being insensitive here, but financially, with no pension from Archie, are doing okay? Are you and the grand kids doing okay?
JD: It's a little better off because we have the guardianship of one of our granddaughters. It will be three years that we have Jessica. That was difficult because it was like starting life all over again with a teenager. It's very nice at times, then at other times it can be difficult because times have changed.
But it's not easy because of a different situation, which I hope will go well on Tuesday. I never applied for my citizenship papers because I never understood the need. I was married to an American; I was living in the country that I felt was mine now. I was an American but it wasn't down on paper.
Then I went to work, I raised the children until they went to college and then I went to work and time went by and I would always say, “one of these days I have to become an American” and time would pass. It's only last year that I say that I have no more excuses. I want to be an American citizen and I applied but times have changed. You don't become an American citizen as easily as was fifty six years ago when I could have got my papers right away.
It took one year. It was the beginning of March, a year ago, that I applied for my citizenship. They told me that it would probably take a year and a half to two years before I became a citizen. That is very difficult right now, for me, because I am going in for an interview on Tuesday. I don't know when I will be sworn in but until I am not sworn in, the money that we have has to be put in trust, otherwise I'm going to be taxed fifty percent.
The American people, every time somebody passes away, the tax is 25 percent and it's double for me because I'm not a citizen. So that is a really big worry for me. If it goes well Tuesday, they’ll tell me that I'll be sworn in soon. I'm going to find out some information. They told me it might take three weeks to six months. They couldn't give me an exact time so I don't know. If it takes too long, the money we have, has to be put in a trust fund, in a government trust fund. So I will get taxed only when I am a citizen.
BB: So when Dan past away, any moneys that were in his name or under your name or under both of your names?
JD: Under his name but he had a will and the will was that his possessions were to come to me. That's when the trouble comes in.
BB: So any funds that were available, all the sudden were frozen to avoid that double taxation? Would he get a G.I. Pension?
BB: From being in the war I would have thought...
JD: No, just the social security, both of us - him and I.
BB: But you guys were able to pay off the house before hand?
JD: The house is paid off yes. But there are still the taxes. The taxes have gone up since we live here. The bank has opened one account for me so we have some money to survive. We have to actually wait to see what happens and then I just want to know how long it's going to take to find out what happens to the money and when it will be available.
BB: So at the same time you're dealing with the suddenness and the shock and then the government of the country you've lived in for sixty years is not exactly helping out.
JD: And we lived by the law. We paid our taxes. We did everything we were supposed to do. Actually there is no exception for anyone - you just have to go through the red tape.
BB: So you've had Jessica with you there since Dan passed away? How much of a help is that?
JD: Well, I don't know if it's a help. I'm a help to Jessica. She's a wonderful child but she's a teenager.
BB: How old is she now?
BB: You've, more or less, raised her for the last three years?
JD: The last three years were an adjustment to make on both parts because I was raised very strict so I expect certain things and, for her, she went through terrible times so she’s had to deal with all that.
BB: Were you more of a disciplinarian than Dan was? With James and Dan Jr., were you the disciplinarian of the family?
JD: She was too young to remember when her father died. When James passed away, she was only six years old. After that she had a terrible time with her mother who had a problem.
BB: We don't have to go there if you don't want to go there. I don't want to make you uncomfortable.
JD: Then she lost her grandfather. It's difficult for that child.
BB: I can't imagine. Even though my parents divorced when I was at a young age, I at least felt that I had that foundation of love and support. No matter what kind of troubled times there might of been I always felt that if I fell that somebody would catch me and that was a big help, as I'm sure you and Dan have been to her.
JD: Yes, and still today, I want to be here for her. I just feel she's too young to really be on her own. I want to make sure that when she makes a decision, that it's time for her to leave when it's time for her to leave. But I'm going to do everything in my power to try to get her to understand that here she has a roof over her head, and that I love her and am concerned about her future.
BB: So, keeping Dan's memory alive; you said you were going to go to conventions and this lawsuit is still going to be pursued, as you say, for the future generations. Do you see the other project you were discussing... was there a name to that project with the three girls living in the lower-east side?
JD: It was called Jesse. We felt that because Jessica could not contribute to the making of the book, we gave the book her name.
BB: So you're planning on developing that?
JD: I don't know if I can. Who would draw her?
BB: There are people who were very inspired by Dan's work. Like I said, Batton Lash was a huge fan of Dan's work.
JD: If I could find someone and they would have to be approved by Dan Fogel to see. Actually, I'm in contact with Dan and we are trying to find a way. Because if there were someone to draw, we would gladly make it come true. I think the idea is wonderful.
BB: Who exactly is Dan Fogel for the record?
JD: He's not an artist. He is in his own right but he does have all the books, he's not a collector either. He sells a lot of stuff at the convention.
BB: Like comic books and original art?
JD: Yes, right. So he has a lot of knowledge of art but he just can't draw.
BB: How did you guys meet up?
JD: At a convention.
BB: He was a big fan of Dan's? And he lives kind of in your area?
JD: No, he lives in California.
BB: He was helping out on this Jesse strip?
JD: He was the one who was going to launch it. There was a room where people were invited to come and listen to things happening in the art world. That's when there was like a meeting of Dan, Dan Fogel and his partner - a few other people were there - and they were asking the public some questions, how they felt and wanting to have feed back from then to see what they thought about the idea.
BB: Dan Fogel was the backer of this project?
BB: It would be great if something could come of that.
JD: Yes, this is what Dan Fogel and I will discuss now, if we could find an artist who wants to take over the art. Christy can draw but I don't think she could carry on the cartoon. She very gifted and very artistically inclined. She works on so many projects. She works with beads and flowers and she can draw also. But I don't think it would be easy for her to write and draw and she's very good at writing.
BB: Do you socialize with other artists’ wives?
JD: We belonged to the NCA, which is the National Cartoonists Association. All the cartoonists when they get together, it's like they “click” and they can't leave one another. You can't pull them apart. They have seminars and so they could be gone sometimes the whole day and all the women are there alone.
So we had a meeting and the wife of the new president that year say to us, “I would like to ask all of you what you ladies would like to do while our husbands are busy at their seminar.” And we said, “I don't know.” She said, “oh well I don't know,” and she made some suggestions. I raised my hand and said, “I have an idea, let’s have group therapy,” and everybody laughed. We complain about the same things. “Let's wash our dirty laundry together!”
BB: You are all sisters really, you all have the same types of stories?
JD: “They work too many hours, they do this, they do that.” The few complaints that we had I thought that we should share it and discuss it.
BB: I guess Lindy Ayers was at the funeral, was she not? You guys know each other fairly well?
BB: Were you always at the same tables together?
JD: Not always at the same table, no, but because we’ve had enough time to talk to each other. When they are together, the whole group is like one because they click. They admire each other. There is no jealousy among artists. They admire each other’s work. It's such a feeling of admiration. They give advice to one other – “I’m using this kind of pen, and this kind of ink - they talk shop all the time because the most important thing in their minds is their work.
BB: Whom did Dan admire? Of whom did he speak so highly?
JD: He first admired Norman Rockwell. He even did a painting of Norman Rockwell because he wanted to be an illustrator at the beginning of his art school.
BB: Did that ever bother him that that didn't happen for him or was he pleased that he made such an impact? Because he made more of an impact with Archie than he would have ever made, I gather, as an illustrator.
JD: Yes, I agree with you.
BB: Frankly, more people know of Dan's work on Archie than probably Norman Rockwell.
JD: It also stems from the cartoons that he drew when was stationed in England. We still have all these cartoons. All these situations that he was experiencing, it started right then and there. It started with the war because maybe he felt that there was something special about that war that he was in. He was young and he just had to express himself.
BB: Did he talk about the effect? Was he in battle a lot or was it mainly because he was an artist and he didn't have to go into battle at all.
JD: No, he wasn't in battle at all. He was mostly a draftsman. He drew pin-ups for the nose of the planes.
BB: Were there other comic book artists that he admired the work of?
JD: Well, I couldn't really say one name in particular. He loved all type of hard work. He loved to go to the museum. So it's hard to say whom he admired. The only one I ever heard him talk about was Norman Rockwell.
BB: When he was working from home, would you deliver the artwork? Would you take it to the post office? You were the delivery person?
JD: Yes. Oh yes.
BB: Because Lindy would talk about the same thing. If Dick took it into the city, when he was taking it into Timely comics, that was an afternoon wasted because that was an hour or two hours away from the drawing table. So you were the delivery person.
JD: That's right. That's what I meant about what we were complaining about when we're together. And also we do all the driving.
BB: That can be really rough, sending it in by mail. Was there ever any times where a job was lost?
JD: No, not really. If it was lost, it was fine. Not that I ever remember that anything was ever lost for good. But I lost a lot of work from Dan. I left a portfolio in a taxi that we were taking to a convention in New York - a value of 4000 dollars of work. Actually, he always said it was his best work. It was never found.
BB: Oh no! When the conventions start rolling around, you guys are almost partners in terms of your the sales person out there, he's drawing-
JD: I felt terrible. I went to every police station in New York that day. One fan of Dan’s went with me because I was so sure that somebody was going to return it because all the work was signed. Dan had just bought a new portfolio so he didn't have his name on it.
Naturally, we learned through experience that if you take a taxi that you must ask for a receipt. On the receipt they have the name and number of the taxi and you could get in touch right away with the cab. But I didn't know that. I paid him. Dan was already out of the car and I before I realized the taxi was already gone.
BB: You realized right there on the street?
JD: I kept calling for weeks just to see if it was at the police station in the lost and found because Dan did the same thing one time. He left his portfolio but he was more fortunate because it was sent back to him.
BB: He left it in a taxicab too?
JD: I don't remember where he left it.
BB: How supportive was he when you left it in the cab? Was he like, “I've done that before, don't worry about it.”
JD: I thought he was going to be so furious. This is one thing I'm not going to be able to get away with. He's going to get so angry with me but no, he said, “it's done - it's done. If it's gone, it's gone.” He understood that I always had so much in mind. I try to always make life much easier for him. I take on more than I should.
BB: That's a common theme among a lot of artists’ wives. What's something you would have taken upon yourself that your referring to here?
JD: I know that Dan had gone through so much with his health – the care and the time he had to take for that.
BB: So you're talking the later years then?
BB: Who was the person who took on the household finances back in the fifties and sixties?
JD: Dan always did that.
BB: He felt comfortable doing that? A lot of artists are so focused on creating that a lot of the wives have to end up picking up the other things around the household, things maybe normal 9 to 5ers wouldn't have to do just so the husband could create and draw.
JD: Yes, it's the same thing in replacing that bulb, or trying to find a door that doesn't lock anymore. You know, all these little chores that men sometimes had to take on.
BB: So you had to do more of that just to allow him to draw?
taped Sunday June 9th, 2002, by phone from New York for
“I Have To Live With This Guy!”
JD: When he was going to Art School, he said the guys would yell after him, “you are wasting your time, DeCarlo!” He didn’t waste his time.
JD: They used to get together in Pennsylvania at Fred Waring’s - “The Man Who Taught America How To Sing!” - Estate. He would invite all the artists once a year and Dan won third prize in the golf tournament. I went down with Dan all the time and got to meet Jackie Gleason. He was exactly the same in person as you saw on the screen. He was a very funny guy. He liked to drink, too! In between working at home, he would practice his putting.
BB: Is there one cute story about Dan's fans? A specific story about a fan of Dan's that "warmed his heart"? Do you remember a specific fan letter that Dan treasured and did he tell you why he treasured it?
JD: A couple of fan letters Dan saved in his album. One was from his nephew, for whom Dan had done a cartoon, and it said, “Dear Uncle Dan, thank you for your moose picture. I am in cub scouts. How’s Aunt Josie. I show my moose picture to my friend and he likes it. Yours truly, Michael.” And then on the back, he put, “because my brother is too young, he could not write to you, so I’ll make him sign.”
Things like this, Dan kept. He used to get SO much fan mail, and couldn’t have possibly kept them. There was another nice one from a girl. She sent Dan a picture and said, “Dear Dan, I was so ecstatic and thrilled when I opened the package from you. I know you are busy, so I was happy to know you remember me. I love (and she put ‘love’ all different ways) the pin-up and the Betty and Veronica story. It is really a special honour to own this item. They are now my most treasured possession. Thank you for making a dream come true. I just found another old Josie from February 1968. Pepper was still around, and I look forward to your stories and covers. Sometimes I think my daughter like the covers the best. It was certainly a huge point in my life to meet you. My friends are tired of hearing about it.” That was from 1997, when he went to a Museum with an Archie Group.
There was a woman who took art class and she made a stain-glass window of Betty and Veronica. It took her a year and then she gave it to Dan about five years ago. It’s on the door of his studio. It’s takes up about a third of the door. It’s quite big and she has Betty and Veronica down to their wastes. She even put real earrings on their ears. She was inspired so much by Dan’s work that she couldn’t keep it for herself.
An art teacher in Seattle, a Mr. Hatcher, would teach his group of students (around nine to fourteen years old) cartoons. When we met him in Seattle, he took the children on Sunday as a field trip to meet Dan to have him talk to them. When Dan went to the hospital for the first time, in the winter of 2000, for his pneumonia, they all drew him something, all the drawings in a big envelope, and sent him a get well card. I still have all those cards.
When he passed away, they sent me more condolences. A 14-year-old girl, in particular, is going to be a great artist for her age. She sent a letter and picture of a little girl crying, her hair covering part of her mouth and eyes, and the tears are coming down. The letter said, “When you lose someone, it is like your life falls apart. Clouds seem to cover you, but really a person never dies in your heart. As long as he is there, he will never leave. The love in your heart stays strong and pure always, and the dark clouds shall disappear and the sun will shine through. Be happy, for he hasn’t truly left you. He’s here shining through you.”
He would just be happy to read a letter, and sometimes I would have to grab them out of his hand before he would discard it. You can’t keep everything.
I really became friendly with Lindy Ayers. The conventions were all new to me. I didn’t know what would happen, or what I would have to do. She took time to help me and show me the easy way to set up the tables. We did a lot of traveling together.
We were stuck two days in an airport trying to go to Detroit, stuck in a big storm. The two artists would discuss business and start sketching. Every two hours, we would go to see if it was going to be the next plane, and by 11pm, they told us there wouldn’t be any next plane and to come back at 5 a.m.! We lost one day of the convention, doing sketches, and when we arrived we were very tired having to set up.
Lindy made things easier for me, and even now I still give her a call when I have questions to say, “what should I do about this?” She taught me to pack a little snack when going to conventions, and now I pack some crackers whenever I go.
BB: You say, to communicate early on, you had to use dictionaries and cartoons. Are there any funny stories that came about because of the language barrier?
JD: He would do cartoons and would try and write the captions in French! At least he was trying! When I met Dan, I gave him a picture of me when I was 16 years-old, just as the War was going to start. He wrote on the back, “Jo Jo Dumont, age sixteen-and-a-half - still no sign of brains, Dr. Dan.”
BB: You say Dan was a shy guy early on? Is there a story that would symbolize this?
JD: When we met, his shyness came from meeting people out of his country. He was more cautious. He was just studying everyone. He would ring my doorbell and I would open it, but there was no one there. I always had to look out because he would always step aside to hide. His shyness was superficial and he quickly outgrew it.
For the rest of his life, he used to love to tease the ladies. When he passed some of the ladies he knew, he would poke some of them in the back with his finger, but go so fast that they would turn around and not see anybody! On the cruise, when we had the costume party, he had dressed like a safari hunter with the shorts, the white hat, and cacky pants. He had a gun with a cork on it, and would shoot the cork into all the ladies’ derrieres! He never got slapped in the face once!
BB: Is there a specific story about the Federic Wertham and the Comics Code Authority during the '50s and how much turmoil it caused?
JD: Dan changed his style. He couldn’t not draw the voluptuous women of Humourama. Dan went to Archie and started to draw the teenage girls, so it didn’t affect him as much. We felt it a bit at the beginning, but it didn’t really last. People would ask questions and would want to know if comics were really that bad.
BB: What kind of music would he listen to back then when drawing?
JD: He loved Frank Sinatra and Linda Ronstadt. He found it was music he could listen to and work at the same time. He liked Dean Martin, and jazz – mostly popular songs that were easy to listen to when working. He listened to music not loud, but always in the background. Gene Colan would be making them fly!
BB: Any more stories about Vincent and Dan as artists?
JD: Vincent was in the Korean War. When he came back, Dan said, “you can draw – you are good. We should work together.” Dan wanted him to learn so he said, “I’ll teach you.” Vincent never went to art school, like Dan did, but they were all artistic in his family, like his father.
BB: Can you relate some examples of Dan's sense of humour?
JD: When he was a teenager at home, he had four girls to tease and his sisters said he was always making them laugh. He was the older brother, and Vincent was the last born. I think Vincent could have really become a good artist, if he hadn’t died so young.
BB: Any other stories about his days working on Archie?
JD: When he first starting working for Archie, Dan would go into New York once a week to the offices. When they moved to Merrimac, Dan would go to Archie at least every other day. He never worked there – he always worked at home.
Dan had a studio outside of the home when the kids were young, and then moved back home. He had the studio with Rudy Lapick was inking for Dan because he wanted him to right there to supervisor. The inkers sometimes could sometimes be very good, and keep the line like the pencils, and others would not follow. Dan was already concerned about that and he thought Rudy would do better if Dan was right there.
Dan’s studio was about a fifteen minute drive from our place – maybe about five minutes more for Rudy because he was in Yonkers. It was above an art supply store.
When he would go to Archie once a week to bring the art there, he would socialize a bit. Some of the artists would go have a bite to eat. That was Dan’s night out! J
He would go in every other day because he was working at a much faster pace.
BB: You say "I was always surprised, how can you always draw something different everyday? How did he do? Coming down in the morning and having to look at a blank sheet of paper and having to put something down." Did he tell you how he came up with ideas all the time? Did he do something to inspire himself?
JD: He always had ideas. He would think of ideas when he was eating his breakfast. He didn’t wait to be face-to-face with the paper. Sometimes he would voice what he was going to do. He also loved to work with a good writer when they understood each other. He loved to work with George Gladir. Same thing with Stan Lee. When they worked together, they understood each other.
When he was working for Archie, he would get full scripts. He did write sometimes, but he felt that was keeping him up during the night! He was not meant to be a writer, as he prefered to draw.
BB: You say "Well, he realized that he didn't want to work for them any longer. They gave him that terrible letter telling him that he was no longer needed. But it's also the fact that he was beginning to get very unhappy about what was happening." What was he specifically getting unhappy about at Archie?
JD: He never really got that much recognition. He was getting paid, but he was creating not just Josie, but plenty of new characters. He was their man, their most important artist. There were some other who were very good, also, but Dan was also coming up with new ideas, and not to be recognized after so many years working with the company, it was disappointing. Particularly when you don’t have even a pension. My job was certainly not as important as my husband’s and I got a pension.
They gave Dan that letter because he was voicing his displeasure. He was making waves. On the day he got the letter, he had already discussed with me before he went, and said, “Josie, I think today is going to be the day. What do you think?”
I said, “Dan, I’ve always let you make all the decisions about your career. I can give you my opinion, but I can’t tell you what to do.” He said, “but how would you feel?” and I said, “it’s not going to change anything between you and I. If you have something to say, say it!” I was very supportive because I knew what my husband did for that company.
He wasn’t going there to say, “I’m not going to work here anymore” but that he was expecting something more.
That was the day they gave him the letter. They were prepared to give him the letter. They knew he was coming. He did think something might happen, that there might be fireworks, but who would have an idea after so many years, to do it so cruelly. When Dan came home, he had to be sad, but he didn’t want to show it. I was sad for him. He was worried about all responsibilities because we were raising a teenager. Dan always felt very responsible for all of us.
It was cruel! Dan was already getting on in years. It was the same at the funeral. They didn’t send any condolences. I don’t care what occurs between people – sometimes you must do what you are supposed to do. Not a word of condolence, and from Victor, just one card – a store-bought card, signed. We received hundreds and hundreds of cards and letters and people took time to write letters, but not Archie Comics.
Victor was the middle man. Goldwater and Michael Silberkleit.
BB: Can you tell me the story about when you decided to sue Archie? How much influence did you have? What obstacles did you run into? Any specific stories about the hardships you faced with the lawsuit? Was there one particular person who supported you?
JD: We didn’t really think of suing right away, but we said we have to find a lawyer, to see what our rights are. We were hoping for a percentage on the merchandise. Maybe also a little bonus for creating the characters. We received no severance pay, nothing.
I was supporting him completely because, at that point, my husband needed to do what he felt he had to do. In the back of my mind, I was worried. It’s the wear and tear on people, but it’s probably the same for them, since it’s not over for either party.
The fans and all the articles were a big help. That’s when we started to go to conventions. That was very good for Dan because they would come and say, “it’s very unfair what they are doing to you. We feel bad for you.” It was very good for Dan to think so many people were behind him. People would come to Dan for a sketch and stand there and watch him draw.
Dan had no problem having someone stand over his shoulder when drawing. The kids would join him in his home studio, and say, “Poppie, why don’t you do this?” Dan said, “they think they’re better artists than me!” Dan liked all their criticism because they wanted to feel part of it.
BB: You say, "I raised my hand and said, 'I have an idea, let's have group therapy,' and everybody laughed. We complain about the same things. 'Let's wash our dirty laundry together!" Any other interesting stories about "the same things" you and other wives would have to go through married to an artist?
JD: It’s funny that the husbands want us to go to the conventions, but then we don’t see them because when we get there, the artists stay glued together!
Dan took care of all the bills, and it is difficult for me now because I have to do it. But if something was broken, I had to try to figure out who I was going to call to come and repair. Dan was not a handy man. I would say to Dan, “if we turn this faucet off...” and he would say, “no, that won’t do it,” and I would say, “yes, I’ll show you!” In the meantime, he was vert smart since he was getting me to do it! “Let’s put a chair against that until the repair man comes,” and he would say, “Okay!” and fly out of the room, so as not to get involved. Fortunately, he had a lot of good childhood friends who he would get to help out.
BB: Do you remember the worst instance where he was feeling creatively frustrated with a piece of work? What was the work that you remember giving him the most frustration?
JD: Once in a while, he would call me in and I would have to hold an object, or bend in a certain way for what he was doing. It’s very difficult to work with hands. If someone in the story was carrying something, he wanted to capture what it looked like to wrap your fingers around something. It coudl have been a vase, or a book. Everybody has a different way of holding things. “How would you hold that?” he would ask me.
BB: When you would go on vacation, would he take a sketchbook?
JD: No, but he would draw on all the tablecloths and we’d come home with this material! He would sketch a building he saw. Whenever we went out for dinner with the children, he was constantly sketching on paper napkins.
Once in a while, I would have feelings of neglect, but when he would start to sketch like that, the kids would join in and sketch too, and I would be picking up all the pieces of the ‘masterpiece’ the children were doing. He would always ask the waiter, “can I borrow your pencil?” and they would sometimes say, “if you will sketch me!”
We had this wonderful trip in Canada with Ida and Joe Edwards, one of the three important artists at Archie (with Stan Goldberg). Joe said to me, “I don’t think Archie understood the importance of the three of us.” They should have sent those three men places to promote.
Somebody had got in touch with Joe in the mid-‘90s – a man named Paul from Edmonton – and he wanted to buy as much artwork as we would sell. We met him in New York, and he invited us in his home, and we had a great time. They took us everywhere. We went to Toronto, the CN Tower. It was so nice to have them almost treat the artists like celebrities when the men felt they had so little respect in the office.
BB: How often would Stan and Joe and Dan see each other?
JD: When the office was in New York, they would all go in once a week. When they moved up here, it was difficult to make the trip because they lived in Long Island.
Dan went more often because they gave more deadlines to Dan because they knew he was close to the office, and if they had a rush on something, they would call Dan, and he would go. Sometimes, I was a little annoyed with that. I said, “you’re in the middle of doing something, and they’re interrupting you.” The others got away without having to put in as many appearances.
BB: What was Stan Goldberg like?
JD: You them together and they glue to each other. At the museum in Long Island, it was wonderful to see them together. There was no jealousy amongst the artists. They admired each other’s work. They would exchange ideas on how they do things. Stan is a little younger, and Joe is not feeling well, and is probably not working very much right now.
We’d see them at the Christmas parties, and then they stopped them. First, the wives were invited to the party and then that all changed.